Senator Mason. Can you tell us who furnished money
for your expedition?
John Brown. I furnished most of it myself; I cannot
implicate others. It is by my own folly that I have been taken. I could easily
have saved myself from it, had I exercised my own better judgment rather than
yielded to my feelings.
Mason. You mean if you had escaped immediately?
Brown. No. I had the means to make myself secure
without any escape; but I allowed myself to be surrounded by a force by being
too tardy. I should have gone away; but I had thirty odd prisoners, whose wives
and daughters were in tears for their safety, and I felt for them. Besides, I
wanted to allay the fears of those who believed we came here to burn and kill.
For this reason I allowed the train to cross the bridge, and gave them full
liberty to pass on. I did it only to spare the feelings of those passengers and
their families, and to allay the apprehensions that you had got here in your
vicinity a band of men who had no regard for life and property, nor any
feelings of humanity.
Mason. But you killed some people passing along the
streets quietly.
Brown. Well, sir, if there was anything of that kind
done, it was without my knowledge. Your own citizens who were my prisoners will
tell you that every possible means was taken to prevent it. I did not allow my
men to fire when there was danger of killing those we regarded as innocent
persons, if I could help it. They will tell you that we allowed ourselves to be
fired at repeatedly, and did not return it.
A Bystander. That is not so. You killed an unarmed
man at the corner of the house over there at the water-tank, and another
besides.
Brown. See here, my friend; it is useless to dispute
or contradict the report of your own neighbors who were my prisoners.
Mason. If you would tell us who sent you here, — who
provided the means, — that would be information of some value.
Brown. I will answer freely and faithfully about what
concerns myself, — I will answer anything I can with honor, — but not about
others.
Mr. Vallandigham (who had just entered). Mr. Brown,
who sent you here?
Brown. No man sent me here; it was my own prompting
and that of my Maker, or that of the Devil, — whichever you please to ascribe
it to. I acknowledge no master in human form.
Vallandigham. Did you get up the expedition yourself?
Brown. I did.
Vallandigham. . Did you get up this document that is
called a Constitution?
Brown. I did. They are a constitution and ordinances
of my own contriving and getting up.
Vallandigham. How long have you been engaged in this
business?
Brown. From the breaking out of the difficulties in
Kansas. Four of my sons had gone there to settle, and they induced me to go. I
did not go there to settle, but because of the difficulties.
Mason. How many are there engaged with you in this
movement?
Brown. Any questions that I can honorably answer I
will, — not otherwise. So far as I am myself concerned, I have told everything
truthfully. I value my word, sir.
Mason. What was your object in coming?
Brown. We came to free the slaves, and only that.
A Volunteer. How many men, in all, had you?
Brown. I came to Virginia with eighteen men only,
besides myself.
Volunteer. What in the world did you suppose you
could do here in Virginia with that amount of men?
Brown. Young man, I do not wish to discuss that
question here.
Volunteer. You could not do anything.
Brown. Well, perhaps your ideas and mine on military
subjects would differ materially.
Mason. How do you justify your acts?
Brown I think, my friend, yon are guilty of a great
wrong against God and humanity, — I say it without wishing to be offensive, —
and it would be perfectly right for any one to interfere with you so far as to
free those you wilfully and wickedly hold in bondage. I do not say this
insultingly.
Mason. I understand that
Brown. I think I did right, and that others will do
right who interfere with you at any time and at all times. I hold that the
Golden Rule, “Do unto others as ye would that others should do unto you,”
applies to all who would help others to gain their liberty.
Lieutenant Stuart. But don't you believe in the
Bible?
Brown. Certainly I do.
Mason. Did you consider this a military organization
in this Constitution? I have not yet read it.
Brown. I did, in some sense. I wish you would give
that paper close attention.
Mason. You consider yourself the commander-in-chief
of these “provisional” military forces?
Brown. I was chosen, agreeably to the ordinance of a
certain document, commander-in-chief of that force.
Mason. What wages did you offer?
Brown. None.
Stuart. “The wages of sin is death.”
Brown. I would not have made such a remark to you if
you had been a prisoner, and wounded, in my hands.
A Bystander. Did you not promise a negro in Gettysburg
twenty dollars a month?
Brown. I did not.
Mason. Does this talking annoy you?
Brown. Not in the least.
Vallandigham. Have you lived long in Ohio?
Brown. I went there in 1805. I lived in Summit
County, which was then Portage County. My native place is Connecticut; my
father lived there till 1805.
Vallandigham. Have you been in Portage County lately?
Brown. I was there in June last.
Vallandigham. When in Cleveland, did you attend the
Fugitive Slave Law Convention there?
Brown. No. I was there about the time of the sitting
of the court to try the Oberlin rescuers. I spoke there publicly on that
subject; on the Fugitive Slave Law and my own rescue. Of course, so far as I
had any influence at all, I was supposed to justify the Oberlin people for
rescuing the slave, because I have myself forcibly taken slaves from bondage. I
was concerned in taking eleven slaves from Missouri to Canada last winter. I
think I spoke in Cleveland before the Convention. I do not know that I had
conversation with any of the Oberlin rescuers. I was sick part of the time I
was in Ohio with the ague, in Ashtabula County.
Vallandigham. Did you see anything of Joshua R.
Giddings there?
Brown. I did meet him.
Vallandigham. Did you converse with him?
Brown. I did. I would not tell you, of course,
anything that would implicate Mr. Giddings; but I certainly met with him and
had conversations with him.
Vallandigham. About that rescue case?
Brown. Yes; I heard him express his opinions upon it
very freely and frankly.
Vallandigham. Justifying it?
Brown. Yes, sir; I do not compromise him, certainly,
in saying that.
Vallandigham. Will you answer this: Did you talk with
Giddings about your expedition here?
Brown. No, I won't answer that; because a denial of
it I would not make, and to make any affirmation of it I should be a great
dunce.
Vallandigham. Have you had any correspondence with
parties at the North on the subject of this movement?
Brown. I have had correspondence.
A Bystander. Do you consider this a religious
movement?
Brown. It is, in my opinion, the greatest service man
can render to God.
Bystander. Do you consider yourself an instrument in
the hands of Providence?
Brown. I do.
Bystander. Upon what principle do you justify your
acts?
Brown. Upon the Golden Rule. I pity the poor in
bondage that have none to help them: that is why I am here; not to gratify any
personal animosity, revenge, or vindictive spirit. It is my sympathy with the
oppressed and the wronged, that are as good as you and as precious in the sight
of God.
Bystander. Certainly. But why take the slaves against
their will?
Brown. I never did.
Bystander. You did in one instance, at least.
Stephens, the other wounded prisoner, here said, “You are
right. In one case I know the negro wanted to go back.”
Bystander. Where did you come from?
Stephens. I lived in Ashtabula County, Ohio.
Vallandigham. How recently did you leave Ashtabula
County?
Stephens. Some months ago. I never resided there any length
of time; have been through there.
Vallandigham. How far did you live from Jefferson?
Brown. Be cautious, Stephens, about any answers that
would commit any friend. I would not answer that.
[Stephens turned partially over with a groan of pain, and
was silent. ]
Vallandigham. Who are your advisers in this movement?
Brown. I cannot answer that. I have numerous
sympathizers throughout the entire North.
Vallandigham. In northern Ohio?
Brown. No more there than anywhere else; in all the
free States.
Vallandigham. But you are not personally acquainted
in southern Ohio?
Brown. Not very much.
A Bystander. Did you ever live in Washington City?
Brown. I did not. I want you to understand, gentlemen,
and [to the reporter of the “Herald”] you may report that, — I want you to
understand that I respect the rights of the poorest and weakest of colored
people, oppressed by the slave system, just as much as I do those of the most
wealthy and powerful. That is the idea that has moved me, and that alone. We
expected no reward except the satisfaction of endeavoring to do for those in
distress and greatly oppressed as we would be done by. The cry of distress of the
oppressed is my reason, and the only thing that prompted me to come here.
Bystander. Why did you do it secretly?
Brown. Because I thought that necessary to success;
no other reason.
Bystander. Have you read Gerrit Smith's last letter?
Brown. What letter do you mean?
Bystander. The “New York Herald” of yesterday, in
speaking of this affair, mentions a letter in this way : —
“Apropos of this exciting news, we
recollect a, very significant passage in one of Gerrit Smith's letters,
published a month or two ago, in which he speaks of the folly of attempting to
strike the shackles off the slaves by the force of moral suasion or legal
agitation, and predicts that the next movement made in the direction of negro
emancipation would be an insurrection in the South.”
Brown. I have not seen the “New York Herald” for some
days past; but I presume, from your remark about the gist of the letter, that I
should concur with it. I agree with Mr. Smith that moral suasion is hopeless. I
don't think the people of the slave States will ever consider the subject of
slavery in its true light till some other argument is resorted to than moral
suasion.
Vallandigham. Did you expect a general rising of the
slaves in case of your success?
Brown. No, sir; nor did I wish it. I expected to
gather them up from time to time, and set them free.
Vallandigham. Did you expect to hold possession here
till then?
Brown. Well, probably I had quite a different idea. I
do not know that I ought to reveal my plans. I am here a prisoner and wounded,
because I foolishly allowed myself to be so. You overrate your strength in
supposing I could have been taken if I had not allowed it. I was too tardy
after commencing the open attack — in delaying my movements through Monday
night, and up to the time I was attacked by the Government troops. It was all
occasioned by my desire to spare the feelings of my prisoners and their
families and the community at large. I had no knowledge of the shooting of the
negro Heywood.
Vallandigham. What time did you commence your
organization in Canada?
Brown. That occurred about two years ago; in 1858.
Vallandigham. Who was the secretary?
Brown. That I would not tell if I recollected; but I
do not recollect. I think the officers were elected in May, 1858. I may answer
incorrectly, but not intentionally. My head is a little confused by wounds, and
my memory obscure on dates, etc.
Dr. Biggs. Were you in the party at Dr. Kennedy's
house?
Brown. I was the head of that party. I occupied the
house to mature my plans. I have not been in Baltimore to purchase caps.
Dr. Biggs. What was the number of men at Kennedy's?
Brown. I decline to answer that.
Dr. Biggs. Who lanced that woman's neck on the hill?
Brown. I did. I have sometimes practised in surgery
when I thought it a matter of humanity and necessity, and there was no one else
to do it; but I have not studied surgery.
Dr. Biggs. It was done very well and scientifically.
They have been very clever to the neighbors, I have been told, and we had no
reason to suspect them, except that we could not understand their movements.
They were represented as eight or nine persons; on Friday there were thirteen.
Brown. There were more than that.
Q. Where did you get arms?
A. I bought them.
Q. In what State?
A. That I will not state.
Q. How many guns?
A. Two hundred Sharpe's rifles and two hundred
revolvers, — what is culled the Massachusetts Arms Company's revolvers, a
little under navy size.
Q. Why did you not take that swivel you left in the
house?
A. I had no occasion for it. It was given to me a
year or two ago.
Q. In Kansas?
A. No. I had nothing given to me in Kansas.
Q. By whom, and in what State?
A. I decline to answer. It is not properly a swivel;
it is a very large rifle with a pivot. The ball is larger than a musket ball;
it is intended for a slug.
Reporter. I do not wish to annoy you; but if you have
anything further you would like to say, I will report it.
Brown. I have nothing to say, only that I claim to be
here in carrying out a measure I believe perfectly justifiable, and not to act
the part of an incendiary or ruffian, but to aid those suffering great wrong. I
wish to say, furthermore, that you had better — all you people at the South — prepare yourselves for a settlement of this
question, that must come up for settlement sooner than you are prepared for it.
The sooner you are prepared the better. You may dispose of me very easily, — I
am nearly disposed of now; but this question is still to be settled, — this
negro question I mean; the end of that is not yet. These wounds were inflicted
upon me — both sabre cuts on my head and bayonet stabs in different parts of my
body — some minutes after I had ceased fighting and had consented to surrender,
for the benefit of others, not for my own.1 I believe the Major
would not have been alive; I could have killed him just as easy as a mosquito
when he came in, but I supposed he only came in to receive our surrender. There
had been loud and long calls of “surrender” from us, — as loud as men could
yell; but in the confusion and excitement I suppose we were not heard. I do not
think the Major, or any one, meant to butcher us after we had surrendered.
An Officer. Why did you not surrender before the
attack?
Brown. I did not think it was my duty or interest to
do Bo. We assured the prisoners that we did not wish to harm them, and they
should be set at liberty. I exercised my best judgment, not believing the
people would wantonly sacrifice their own fellow-citizens, when we offered to
let them go on condition of being allowed to change our position about a
quarter of a mile. The prisoners agreed by a vote among themselves to pass
across the bridge with us. We wanted them only as a sort of guarantee of our
own safety, — that we should not be fired into. We took them, in the first
place, as hostages and to keep them from doing any harm. We did kill some men
in defending ourselves, but I saw no one fire except directly in self-defence.
Our orders were strict not to harm any one not in arms against us.
Q. Brown, suppose you had every nigger in the United
States, what would you do with them?
A. Set them free.
Q. Your intention was to carry them off and free
them?
A. Not at all.
A Bystander. To set them free would sacrifice the
life of every man in this community.
Brown. I do not think so.
Bystander. I know it. I think you are fanatical.
Brown. And I think you are fanatical. “Whom the gods
would destroy they first make mad,” and you are mad.
Q. Was it your only object to free the negroes?
A. Absolutely our only object.
Q. But you demanded and took Colonel Washington's
silver and watch?
A. Yes; we intended freely to appropriate the
property of slaveholders to carry out our object. It was for that, and only
that, and with no design to enrich ourselves with any plunder whatever.
Bystander. Did you know Sherrod in Kansas? I
understand you killed him.
Brown. I killed no man except in fair fight. I fought
at Black Jack Point and at Osawatomie; and if I killed anybody, it was at one
of these places.
_______________
1 At the trial of Copeland the following evidence
was given :—
Mr. Sennott. You say that when
Brown was down you struck him in the face with your sabre?
Lieutenant Green. Yes.
Q. This was after he was down?
A. Yes; he was down.
Q. How many times. Lieutenant Green,
did you strike Brown in the face with your sabre after he was down?
A. Why, sir, he was defending
himself with his gun.
Mr. Hunter. I hope the counsel
for the defence will not press such questions as these.
SOURCES: Franklin B. Sanborn, The Life and Letters of
John Brown, p. 562-9; "Startling News from Virginia and Maryland - Negro Insurrection at Harper's Ferry - Strange and Exciting Intelligence," The New York Herald, Tuesday, October 18, 1859, Morning Edition, p. 6 to confirm the date of the interview only.
